Monday, May 21, 2007

Revelation?

With Shavuot starting Tuesday evening, I just wanted to address a point I see debated all over the Internet on blogs and biblical criticism sites everywhere. I don't know if I'm missing something, but it almost seems too obvious to me. I'll explain:

The argument about revelation at Sinai, when the Jews received the Torah, and were all witnesses to that fact, is that there is no proof to that. The logic goes that the Torah tells us that we were all there and saw it happen so because it says so in the Torah, it makes it true. The problem, as the argument goes, is that that is a circular argument. How can you use the very book in question to prove the book is indeed factual. In other words we say we were all there because the Torah says we were.

I don't think that is the proof. I think the proof inside the Torah is not so much that the Torah says we were there so therefore it must be true. I think that is the wrong argument/proof. I think the proof is the very fact that the Jews believed it is the actual proof. Let me clarify:

Everyone of us knows Jews. We know how pushy, obnoxious, overbearing and stubborn they/we can be. Moshe even addresses this point to Hashem when he complains that they are a stiff necked stubborn people. So let's put ourselves there for a moment. We have just left Egypt after a few hundred years of slavery and have witnessed countless miracles on our behalf, but still complain to our leader about everything under the sun. He goes away for awhile to rest and we create a new leader made of gold. Our leader returns and is a bit pissed about being replaced by a cow so he destroys the cow and goes away again. When he comes back, he brings with him a book that tells us of our history. In that book it says we went to this place and that place and did this and that. It says we were rescued in Egypt and it says we traveled in the dessert to XY and Z place.

We are all kind of sitting there listening to our history and taking it all in. Our leader tells us that we need to tell our children and their children about what is in this book because it speaks of our history and what we have been through. We accept it and do as it says which is now obvious from our very existance. Now, I ask you this as people who know Jews. Do you really believe if any of these things did not happen to them, that those stubborn people who first handed the Torah down to the next generation,would have done so? The Jews had no problems challenging Moshe and they did not do so in this case. The Jews I know would have been throwing stuff at Moshe telling him he was a nut and who was he Mr. Big Shot to tell us what we were to do. They would not pass down anything that he made up in order to enslave them just like the Egyptians did. They did not do that. They accepted what he gave them and passed it down.

So the argument isn't that the Torah tells us that we were there so we believe it because that's what the Torah says. The argument is that THE JEWS AT THAT TIME, ACCEPTED WHAT IS IN THERE ABOUT THEMSELVES AND WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM, WHAT THEY DID AND WHERE THEY WENT AND HOW THINGS HAPPENED and then passed that down to each generation, just like we all have had things passed down to us since the beginning of time. THE FACT THAT WE ACTUALLY ACCEPTED WHAT WAS WRITTEN AS TRUE AT THE TIME OF REVELATION is the actual proof-that we didn't argue the facts of the case but agreed that they were true because they had just lived and experienced them. In turn, they handed the Torah down to each subsequent generation afterwards as if to say-here is your history and you can believe from me it's true because I LIVED IT. That is what makes the Torah proof argument not only non-circular, but a solid proof to anyone who knows any Jews at all.

As for the argument that maybe the Torah was written and given generations later so there was no one to disprove what was written in it, it is an arbitrary argument. It is just as easy to say what I wrote above as it is to say the Torah was made up by some old guys 2000 years ago. So unless you can make that argument stick, I find myself going with the one I made above. Maybe the world was started in someones basement and just grew too big and we have what we have now. Whatever claims you can make about the Torah being written years later, I can make a stronger claim above because above is something tangible to base some facts on. Arguments to the contrary are simply arbitrary.

One thing is certain. Surely the Jews at the time of Moshe had more guts than we do today. They did not just accept his word blindly. They had experienced some bad things and were not just ready to follow him wherever he went. He had to prove things to them constantly and they became a thorn in his side at every turn. Yet, they accepted his Torah and the things that were written ABOUT EACH OF THEM PERSONALLY to be true and that alone is enough for me and should be for anyone who has an open mind.

For those who question this, look around you at Jewish leadership and our people today. Do you think we would have argued with Moshe or question the veracity of his claims? Of course not. We are a spoiled lot and we shiver at the site of anything different. I only wish that the people who left Egypt were alive today. They would stand up to a weak kneed leadership who would crumble at the pressure of their outrage. They would demand accountability from their leadership for cover-ups and violations of law both sceular and Torah and call for their ouster if they could not stand up to the pressure. They would ignore Rabbinical wanton orders and ask them based on what authority can they adopt such random edicts. I long for the survivors of Egyptian slavery who received the Torah at Sinai because they were history's greatest skeptics as their behavior indicates....and yet they accepted the Torah to be true and with open arms.

May this Shavout bring you peace, rest, happiness and a greater understanding of what the Creator of the World wants from you and all of us and may we live to see the final redemption with the coming of Moshiach speedily in our days.

6 comments:

Avi said...

So, Moshe came back from wherever he went and told the Jews where they were and what had happened to them, and they believed it ? Does that make sense to you ? Did you know that were in Paris for the past two weeks ? How did you like your vacation ? You dont remember it ? You must have left your brains where the Jews left theirs.

onlyajew said...

A inger

Does that make sense to you?

That is the point-he didn't NEED to tell them, they experienced it for themselves and therefore the fact that they passed that on to their children is the proof in and of itself...kind of like your example-No I wasn't in Paris and I hate the French so I can't accept that as fact....thank you for making my case for me...you showed everyone exactly what the Jews would have done if Moshe said exactly that-you were there, you did this...and they would respond just like you did-no we weren't-keep this junk to yourself-they did not do that...they passed it on which in and of itself is their agreement that indded they had experienced exactly what was written regarding themselves....

Thanks for helping me make my point....great job-obviously, I could not have said it better myself....

ggggg said...

interesting perspective

Mighty Garnel Ironheart said...

Unfortunately there is a big hole in your reasoning.

Now, off the top I'll state that I believe, with perfect faith, in Torah miSinai as documented in that selfsame Torah. I do it based on my faith, not logical arguments. Because here's the problem with your reasoning:

1) The nay-sayers tell us that the current Torah is, in fact, an amalgam of 4 or so different books "redacted" by Ezra after the return from Babylonia. His goal was to provide a single book and unite what until now was a collection of groups each following their own "Torah". You say that could never happen, that the Jews would say "But our ancestors passed down that they were at Sinai and the original event couldn't have been faked." Wrong, it quite easily could have, especially after the galus to Bavel. Recall that the tradition in those days was totally oral. If you wanted to look something up, you didn't have a library to go to. Even though there were a few scrolls around, how many were destroyed by the destruction of Yerushalayim by the Babylonians? So imagine what you've got: Ezra and Nechemiah, by their own admission, aren't exactly bringing back the cream of the crop from Bavel and found those Jews who survived the exile in Israel to be mostly intermarried and completely ignorant of their faith. Certain things like Sukkos have been completely forgotten, according to the Tanach! So how hard is it to invent a new history, especially a glorious one that will be well received by people desperate for some sort of good news?
2) Starting a cult isn't so hard sometimes. Look at Islam. All you have to do is believe Mohammed spoke to G-d one fateful night. Now transport yourself back in time to the first year Ezra's back in Israel. Having not learned any history, having had no access to written Torahs or anyone with a good knowledge of the Oral Law, Ezra finds a people who know nothing of their history. And he's the big shot from Bavel, all rich and educated. How hard would it have been for him to create a history?

Aish HaTorah uses your argument in its Discovery Seminars, which is why only the very gullible attend them.

The truth is that our faith is based on... well, faith. You must have faith that Torah MiSinai is real and that Ezra's Sefer Torah is not a product of his redaction but a faithful copy of their original. That is what has carried the Jewish people forward lo these many millenia.

onlyajew said...

Rock Star,

I hear your point, but as Ezra proved, I disagree.

You are correct. Ezra found a people in Disarray and confused. It is without a doubt the most stunning story we havein Tanach. However, Ezra himself and the people who lived in Bavel, prove the point. Your argument is esentially this. People don't know so therefore what are the odds that it really did happen?

We are talking about two seperate things and all you have to do is read this email I got about my 9 year olds JEWISH contemparraries to understand what Ezra was dealing with....

"If you have any players on your team that did not make the All Star team but would fit in with that level of play and you think they may be available for the tournament team (see attached) please let them know and forward the attached info to them. Coming on Thursday is fine, I know it's short notice. Again, I feel bad that all the tourneys require Saturday play."

This Jewish man feels bad there is Saturday play. I am touched, but it still does not mean that the eveidence contained in the Torah, is not evidence enough. JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE CHOOSE TO IGNORE THE EVIDENCE (ie OJ simpson) DOES NOT MEAN THE EVIDENCE IS NOT THERE.

I get the point but in Bavel the Jews were thriving-how come? Because they learned Torah and were careful to be honest and true to its core (something we could learn from nowadays) but the evidence is still there and holds true. I also question your premise that everything was Oral. Moshe commanded us to write these words down and the Jews listened and did so.

Additionally, you must admit that cults run both ways. There is no doubt that the cult of doubt alos exists-just like the cult of liberalism, anti semitism and anti-toarh. It is not fair nor accurate to say that only "religious" groups are cults etc...it is obvious that we live in the cult of denial. To wit-anything we say is true is in doubt?

As I said above, just because the evidence is IGNORED, does not mean it's not there.

As a side note-I have never seen or been to a Discovery program-how was it you know about it?

Mighty Garnel Ironheart said...

First of all, it's SUPER Rock Star. Anyone can be a plain rock star. Ask Mick Jagger.

In response to your excellent comments, I would like to raise the following points:

> Your argument is esentially this. People don't know so therefore what are the odds that it really did happen?


No, my argument is that when there is ignorance of history, history can be rewritten. Bias can elevate obscure figures to unearned prominence and relegate the real influences to the dustbin. Consider the State of Israel today. An obscenely high percentage of school age Israelis don't know who David Ben Gurion was and can't identify his picture when seeing it. This is in a country which has libraries, computers, all the resources with which to pass on its history to its citizens, and only really has about 100 years to pass along anyway. Now take yourself back to Bavel 2500 years ago. No reference works, no newspaper archives, no way other than oral tradition of passing on recent historical events. In his desire to rejuvenate and unify the broken Jewish people, it can be posited that Ezra took liberties with history, introducing some recalled events and interspersing other invented ones around them to create the Torah we have today.

Now, I don't believe that for a second. All I'm saying is that it is possible and therefore not easily dismissed to a non-believer.

> JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE CHOOSE TO IGNORE THE EVIDENCE (ie OJ simpson) DOES NOT MEAN THE EVIDENCE IS NOT THERE

Absolutely. You are 100% right and I point this out to people all the time. The problem here is one of education. Imagine that tomorrow every non-Hebrew Jewish book on the planet disappears. The Torah, Tanach, Talmud and everything else now becomes closed off to anyone not fluent in Hebrew. There is a natural human tendency to ignore what one cannot understand. In a short time, these books would become ignored by most of the people who even today are studying them becaus they're written in a language they can't understand. The line would be "If I can't understand it, it's not worth knowing." I'm not justifying this, it's a form of ignorance, but it is a true phenomenon. Now we go back to Bavel. The Jews mostly spoke Aramaic, even in Israel before the destruction. Now they're in an entirely Aramaic/Babylonian environment. What happens to the ones who don't know Hebrew? They are essentially cut off from their heritage.

Remember that knowledge was easy to hide in those days. Yoshiyahu HaMelech never saw a complete Sefer Torah until he was 18 years old, so well had they been hidden away under his father's wicked reign.

> I also question your premise that everything was Oral

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to give that impression. Obviously the Torah and Nach were written, along with lots of books such as the ones mentioned in the Torah and Tanach (the various kingly chronicles, the Book o' Wars of the Lord, etc). However, a significant portion of Torah knowledge was oral until the Mishnah, Gemara and Midrash were committed to parchment.

> It is not fair nor accurate to say that only "religious" groups are cults etc...

Alhtouhg, interestingly, you could aruge that all cults are religious groups. But that's for another posting.

No, not all religious groups are cults. One of the beauties of Torah Judaism, when practised properly, is that it isn't a cult. It doesn't have to be isolated from the outside world. It can answer the questions the non-Jewish world asks of it and provide its followers with spiritual and intellectual satisfaction without treatment them like mindless pawns.

> As a side note-I have never seen or been to a Discovery program-how was it you know about it?

They came to the university I was studying in years ago and, being from a small community, I went to hear what they had to say.